NTERVIEW ‘Mass-Produced Engineers From Private Colleges With No Quality Are Of No Use To Us’ The ‘Metro Man’ on the need for reforms in governmental attitude and the ‘control Raj’ that still exists despite two decades of liberalisation. ARINDAM MUKHE

AFP (FROM OUTLOOK, JUNE 27, 2011)

INTERVIEW

'Mass-Produced Engineers From Private Colleges With No Quality Are Of No Use To Us'

The 'Metro Man' on the need for reforms in governmental attitude and the 'control Raj' that still exists despite two decades of liberalisation.

ARINDAM MUKHERJEE INTERVIEWS E. SREEDHARAN

http://outlookindia.com/article.aspx?277221

'Metro Man' E. Sreedharan has been revered as the professional who has kickstarted a whole new work culture in India. But he finds the quality of a majority of engineers in the country below acceptable standards. He blames this on the unbridled growth of private engineering colleges, with no regulatory body in sight. A few days before announcing his succession plan at the Delhi Metro Rail Corporation (DMRC), he met Arindam Mukherjee for an hour-long freewheeling interview. He stressed the need for reforms in governmental attitude and the 'control Raj' that still exists despite two decades of liberalisation. Excerpts:

Do we need to take a fresh look at how engineering education is being run in India, with so many private colleges coming up?

We have enough engineering colleges, producing about two million engineers per annum. But the best out of the IITs and RECs make a beeline for universities abroad. The next best go for management and prefer to sell soaps and oil rather than doing engineering. The next lot goes to the IT sector, which is very lucrative. There are still large numbers left who, unfortunately, are not of the required quality. That means the level of education, particularly in private colleges, is not up to the required standard. There are a few good private colleges. The remaining are all 'business' colleges, which take capitation money and high fees, take students through three to four years and give them a degree. Unfortunately, many of them are deemed universities. This is most unfortunate, and a shame to the nation. We have been so liberal in giving them university status without controlling quality.

How can we fix matters?

"A few private colleges are good. The rest are all 'business' colleges which take capitation money and high fees."

When I started as an engineer, the standard was so high. At that time, the whole of Madras presidency had only four engineering colleges. Today, the same geographical area has 2,000 engineering colleges. But nobody is controlling quality—mass-producing engineers without any quality is of no use to us. There should be a body to regulate and fix the minimum standard required for engineering education and bring about uniformity in the whole country. You cannot have an IIT producing a top-class person and an unknown college in Tamil Nadu producing another person with absolutely no match in their quality. The body should also be responsible for the conduct of engineers later on. Today, if somebody makes a mistake, he can only be taken to court but cannot be banished from the profession. In our own experience at DMRC, we had a bad accident in Zamrudpur. The engineers involved, particularly in the design, cannot be expelled from the profession. Any other country would have seen to it that they did not continue as engineers.

You have suggested a metro technology course at the IITs.

That is because we are facing an immediate problem. Seven other cities have started metros, another seven are waiting to take off. When we started the metro in Delhi, because of my long association with the Indian Railways and Konkan Railways, I could bring out lot of railway engineers. But now, for meeting the technical manpower requirements of so many metros, there are not enough professionals available in the country. So poaching is going on today. I recruit a man, train him, he is poached by a consultant offering three times the salary. Then, another consultant, who is prepared to pay five times the salary, poaches him yet again. Despite that, none of the metros have even one-fifth of their manpower requirement.

We requested IIT-Delhi to start an MTech course in metro technology with streams from civil and electrical engineering. They agreed, provided DMRC met the entire cost. We agreed and have trained 60 people in three batches. So I approached the HRD ministry, requesting them to start MTech courses in at least two IITs, one in the north (IIT-Delhi) and one in the south (IIT-Madras). It (the proposal) is still not accepted by them. The main difficulty is the absence of faculty which has knowledge of a metro.

The Exemplar The Delhi Metro has been largely the achievement of Sreedharan. (Photograph by Narendra Bisht)

Are you averse to having this course in select private sector colleges?

I am not very enthusiastic. In fact, some private colleges have already approached us. Private college means it becomes a business. Education cannot be taken as a business. They want to start the course not to help the metros or the nation, but find a business opportunity and charge high fees. The kind of fees charged for engineering education is very high today. When I joined a government engineering college in 1949-50, my monthly expenditure, including fee, hostel and food, was between Rs 45 and 50. Today, for a normal engineering college, the yearly fee is about Rs 2.5 lakh, plus Rs 1,500 monthly for hostel and food. The government should make engineering education easily accessible to poor people.

"I'm not against PPP per se. But it works only in financially viable projects, which metro projects are not."

How would you motivate engineers to come and join government services?

The first factor in motivation is pride in their profession. Today, in India, engineers do not have any pride because they are under bureaucrats. Engineers with 30 years of experience are working under bureaucrats with 12-15 years of service. What pride or satisfaction will they have? Give them a place of honour. I see no reason why an electricity board, which is purely a technical matter, should have an IAS as chairman. Why not an outstanding electrical engineer? Why should only IAS officers head the highway authority? Why not a distinguished highway engineer? In Germany and Japan, it is not bureaucrats, but engineers who control things. I have seen government engineers, particularly in Kerala and Tamil Nadu, with 30-35 years of experience, but there is no motivation because, for everything, he has to take orders from a bureaucrat. This has to change.

You are not particularly in favour of the PPP (public-private-partnership) model.

I am not against PPP per se. I only say that it will work only in financially viable projects. Any investor would want 15-18 per cent return on investment. Metro projects are generally not financially viable, so why would anyone invest here? Airport, port or highway projects can be on a PPP model but social projects where you have to keep cost of service down because poor people use it, cannot be on PPP. We did the airport project on PPP because air travellers can pay heavy fares. While Delhi Metro's average fare is about Rs 14, air travellers can easily pay Rs 150-200 and still save money, as a taxi costs much more. But what is our experience? The government incurred nearly 55 per cent of the cost, but the project was not completed on time for the Commonwealth Games. Even today, the services are not as we envisaged. If I did the whole job, it would have been completed and been fully in place on time. So even in a viable, financially attractive project, the PPP model has failed.

You have always spoken of different work ethics...

The problem is with our government environment, where there is wastage, inefficiency and indecision. But in the private sector, ethics, efficiency and delivery are very good despite so many regulatory obstacles. The Krishna Godavari (K-G) Gas Basin of Mukesh Ambani's Reliance is a fantastic showpiece. If you see the time taken, the way it has been done, the high technical standard, anybody can be very proud of it. It is perhaps better than in a country like America.

How is corruption impacting the industry and investors?

All along, even before these cases came, we had a bad name. We were 74th in the corruption index even before Satyam. We have been accumulating this notorious bad name for the last several years, starting with, perhaps, the Bofors scandal. Now, some of the foreign investors find corruption a convenient thing to get business in India. So they were looking at it very nicely. Nobody raised a finger against it. I don't think any foreign investor suffered. The sufferer was only the country. And the industry's image has been seriously tarnished in the eyes of the average Indian.

How do you see the growth of the Indian economy with the current levels of inflation and its associated problems?

"The K-G basin of Mukesh Ambani's Reliance is a fantastic showpiece, the time taken, the way it's been done..."

The economy can grow faster. But we need a complete change in government attitude and controls. At every level, there are so many controls and regulatory bodies. We are not learning lessons from China and how it came up so fast in the last 20 years. Controls at every stage are actually slowing down our progress. Government's inactivity and lack of decision is also affecting us. Take the example of metros. China is building metros at about 150 km a year. We are able to produce hardly 25 km a year, that too thanks to Delhi Metro.

But see how much time it takes for clearances. Bangalore Metro took three-and-a-half years to get sanctioned. In China, it would have taken three months. Even today, they are not able to progress fast because they are not being empowered. This atmosphere has to change. For a simple metro like Kochi, there was a lot of debate over whether it was needed or not. And finally it was cleared, but on a PPP model. And for this, it has been delayed by 4-5 years and the cost has doubled.

How should we tackle corruption in the system?

We should look inwards and cleanse the system. Empower people and trust them. Because of a few cases of corruption, you should not distrust people. People in charge of projects have to be given full authority.

A large part of India's leadership is ageing. Does the next generation have similar values?

I feel the next generation is better equipped. I didn't have the exposure and training they have. The only thing missing is the confidence and trust that people have because of the lack of integrity. If that is there, people have a better opportunity and chance to lead the country.

Can the E. Sreedharan model be replicated?

Why not? Only you have to give the new leaders the same kind of confidence and support.

What would you do after the metro?

I want to completely retire from professional life. This time I have requested the government to allow me to go and pursue things I haven't been able to all these years.

What would you tell new engineers entering the industry?

They should take pride in their profession. A passion for the profession is required. They should not look only at remunerations, positions and postings. Remuneration is not the reward for an engineer. The reward is the satisfaction of doing a job well.

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HAVE YOUR SAY |  READ ALL 10 COMMENTS

JUN 19, 2011 04:07 PM 10	Give them a place of honour. I see no reason why an electricity board, which is purely a technical matter, should have an IAS as chairman. Why not an outstanding electrical engineer? Why should only IAS officers head the highway authority? Why not a distinguished highway engineer? the IAS is a descendant of the ICS. Its principal misson today to is perpetuate itself and it adds little value. The economy is too complex for such types of people. This is a cultural problem, I think. In Pakistan, they put a retired general in charge of the Railways, or the electrcity board, who knows nothing about the field. This is very similar to putting an IAS man in charge of something he knows nothing about, but yet Indians call Pakistan a failed state!!  MK SAINI DELHI, INDIA  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (0)  |   DISLIKE (1)  |   REPORT ABUSE
JUN 19, 2011 03:07 PM 9	In Germany and Japan, it is not bureaucrats, but engineers who control things. I have seen government engineers, particularly in Kerala and Tamil Nadu, with 30-35 years of experience, but there is no motivation because, for everything, he has to take orders from a bureaucrat. This has to change. actually an engineer is only respected in these two countries. These countries produce a range of top quality products that others will pay good money for. Germany today is propping up the European Union and preventing it from collapsing.  In other countries, like the UK, USA, accountants and marketing types rise to the top, and end up eventually trashing top flight companies. In this respect they are culturally very similar to India. MK SAINI DELHI, INDIA  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (0)  |   DISLIKE (0)  |   REPORT ABUSE
JUN 19, 2011 02:10 PM 8	He is saying that there is no university which offers courses in Metro rail technology,so naturally you do not find enough engineers for the purpose. He also says that it is becoming difficult to train them because the present day students (from eng.colleges) lack standards of education. One aspect of seeing this problem is that reservation system put pressure on the soceity and hence we have umpteen number of private engineering colleges which demand donations to admit students. This naturally goes to business calculations bacause ,after all, profit is not a dirty word. At the same time we can not denay , that there are many private engineering colleges which have established bench mark standards and also become very popular. The point is there are many other avenues for talented people rather than work for Govt. as an engineer. They can go US , to IT or to IIM.  Govt. should increase number of seats in IIT and also increase the number of eng. seats in good engineering colleges run by Govt to solve this problem.  BOWENPALLE VENURAJA GOPAL RAO. WARANGAL, INDIA  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (0)  |   DISLIKE (0)  |   REPORT ABUSE
JUN 19, 2011 01:45 PM 7	# 6 One plus point of privatising and its attendent corruption, is the somewhat better quantity of doctors produced - something that the older doctors are naturally threatened by. Students spend loads of money for MBBS today, ONLY to land in foreign countries to gain plum employment - countries which already spending 10% of their GDP money on health! This is particularly true of the rich MBBS students encouraged by the MCI today.  However, the doctor- pop ratio is too pathetic to claim that doctors are 'over produced', since almost everyone of them is guaranteed plum employment today. As for the quality of education, no one seems to mind, least of all the older generation, since they might like the younger generation to 'suffer' like they themselves did. But the very concept of merit today is based on religion, caste, gender etc.! Education under 'Integrity' Singh has become " For the rich; By the Rich: From the Rich " MALE UNBLOCKED CHENNAI, INDIA  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (0)  |   DISLIKE (0)  |   REPORT ABUSE
JUN 19, 2011 01:04 PM 6	We the Indians have an unfortunate trait -believe in quantity rather than quality. Why does USA has to encourage immigration rather than  mass produce their requirement of engineers? It is to maintain some semblance of competitiveness and quality.  An assembly line mass produced engineers without sound foundation in problem solving skills will prove more a liability than asset. If the quality of engineers being mass produced in our country is appalling, so is the case of doctors. The mass produced poorly trained doctors are out on prowl. Gone are the days when MBBS could be trusted when medical students used to slog and learn the hard way. A 55% in medicine used to be a great achievement and first time pass in MD used to be an exception rather than rule as it is today. Not that the earlier generation was less intelligent. That deterence of plugging in the exam kept even the best students work hard and put their best foot first.  Now a days, they read semester oriented point wise lecture notes without clear comprehension or concept, and work like zombies. With few exceptions, many present day junior doctors are bereft of real clinical skills expected of doctors. They are thrust with Tons of theory without  an ounce of practical training. Blame it on both the students- wriggled through a system where the bar is much lowered, bloated class rooms without adequate infrastructure, disinterested teachers and not the least -the insincere govts.who are interested in the short term electoral benefits rather than quality and future sustenance of our society. The problem is that we just do not know how to nurture quality SANDILYA CHENNAI, INDIA  PERMALINK  |   LIKE (1)  |   DISLIKE (0)  |   REPORT ABUSE

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