From: kaukab siddique <butshikan@msn.com>
Date: Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 10:32 AM
Subject: [bangla-vision] Sufis are a spent force. RE: Sahaba, r.a. are far superior.RE: Where lies the truth?
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asalamu alaikum
No one in the Muslim world other than Shi'as put Ali, r.a. first.
They all respect him but they ALL put Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman, Allah be pleased with them, above him.
You wrote: "The Shiah position is not about the status of Ali or Ahl-e Bayt."
Are you totally confused? Please go to an Imambara and find out.
Sufi orders are based on Abu Bakr, r.a., and Ali, r.a., but the resurgent Islamic movements are not Sufis.
That time has ended.
You might hate mujahideen but that is not the point. What you and I feel is not the point. Whether we like it or not, the new era is that of Jamaate Islami, Ikhwan, Taliban in Afghanistan, Pakistani Taliban, Punjabi Taliban, Tablighi Jamaat, Hizbut Tahrir, Jamat ud-Dawa, Hizbullah, Al-Qaeda in Iraq and Afghan-pak border, Hamas and Jihad movement in Palestine, Jihad movements in Iraq, Uzbek Mujahideen, Tajik Islamic movement, SIMI [in India], Uighurs in China, Chechen mujahideen, Nigerian movements for Shari'a, al-Shabab now ruling Somalia, Jamat ud-Dawa in Pakistan, FIS in Algeria, Hizbul Mujahideen and Lashkare Taiba in Kashmir and so on.
The Sufis are not strong enough to stand against imperialist-zionist aggression. They are a spent force.
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 21:38:53 -0700
From: doctorforu123@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Sahaba, r.a. are far superior.RE: Where lies the truth?
To: butshikan@msn.com; minayet@yahoo.com; nssjobs@att.net; farrukhabidi@yahoo.com
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AA
Was Ali RA not a Sahabi? In addition he was among Ahl-e Bayt. The Shiah position is not about the status of Ali or Ahl-e Bayt. The whole Sufi world believes like them in this regard. (Now don't call me a Bareilvi.) The Shiah position is primarily based on negation of the first three caliphs and adoption of certain cultural practices like Azadari.
My humble request to you is to make efforts to unite the mankind under the banner of Islam rather than keep fuelling sectarian issues. If we have to achieve the larger objectives, we will have to be mindful of others' sensitivities.
Javed
From: kaukab siddique <butshikan@msn.com>
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Sent: Sat, July 17, 2010 5:16:03 AM
Subject: RE: Sahaba, r.a. are far superior.RE: Where lies the truth?
Dear Dr. Jamil
asalamu alaikum
I did not put a label on you.
I quoted you:
You wrote: "There should be a general acceptance that Ahl-e bayt were superior to companions. Furthermore, Ali, Fatima, Hassan and Hussein were both -- ahl-e bayt and companions;"
Can this have any other meaning that you consider the family of Ali, r.a., superior to the Sahaba, r.a.
That is Shi'aism.
Why do you have to into a rigmarole to say that you did not mean this?
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 21:10:15 -0700
From: doctorforu123@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Sahaba, r.a. are far superior.RE: Where lies the truth?
To: butshikan@msn.com; minayet@yahoo.com; nssjobs@att.net; farrukhabidi@yahoo.com
CC: zina.khan@yahoo.com; jaffem@sen.parl.gc.ca; drmaqazi@yahoo.com; hasniessa@yahoo.com; mohanofchenai@gmail.com; drshabbir@bellsouth.net; moderate53@yahoo.com; sharouq@gmail.com; bahramji@gmail.com; ank2000pk@yahoo.com; mukhtaralam2000@yahoo.com; mathews_kuruvilla06@yahoo.co.in; atif98@yahoo.com; iftekhar.hai@gmail.com; ummaabroadcasting@rollanet.org; premsadani@hotmail.com; saima29@gmail.com; sohailhashmi@gmail.com; sals420@gmail.com; mikeghouse@aol.com; drmookhi@hotmail.com; tarekfatah@rogers.com; mnaquvi@yahoo.com; azam.sikandar@gmail.com; tirmidhi@hotmail.com; alishaban952@yahoo.com; great72000@yahoo.com; hassan_javid@hotmail.com; aleem.faizee@gmail.com; faruquealamgir@yahoo.com; drshabbir@comcast.net; salsabeel65@yahoo.com; khasif235e@yahoo.com; zakhum@hotmail.com; firasat777@yahoo.com; anwerkhurshid@hotmail.com; yunussidira@yahoo.com; ssmeezan@hotmail.com; ahlam_albahr@yahoo.com; amino66@hotmail.com; k2411871@hotmail.com; pk4318@yahoo.com; april702@cox.net; auzyxkhan@yahoo.co.uk; gul_badshah@yahoo.com; shariq.hamid@yahoo.co.in; ahmadtotonji@yahoo.com; sarwar@muslim-ed-trust.org.uk; mirza.syed@gmail.com; khattak99@yahoo.com; bintwaleed@yahoo.com; gafoor111@yahoo.com; cssharif@yahoo.com; nomani_z@yahoo.com; asra@asranomani.com; yousuftabish@yahoo.com; rafiq786@cbn.net.id; rial982000@yahoo.com; sohail972002@yahoo.co.in; aeisha_786@yahoo.com; bushra_meraj@yahoo.com; cherylin_bas@yahoo.com; doctor_aliasghar@yahoo.com; engrbbkarube@yahoo.com; knowledge4all00@yahoo.com; kristonia7@yahoo.com; hussain@nifty.com; juan.suquillo@gmail.com; fayyaz@reading.org; znanwalla@gmail.com; ahumanb@yahoo.com; akbar@mostmerciful.com; mohanofchenai@googlemail.com; brilliant005@hotmail.com; umah.hai@hotmail.com; farzanaqazi@yahoo.com; yas1rkhan@hotmail.com; tsidd96472@aol.com; webmaster9@mostmerciful.com; africawalla@gmail.com; reform@dawoodi-bohras.com; badshahanizer@gmail.com; ibramsha7@yahoo.com
Dear Mr Kaukab,
AA
I am extremely sorry to say that you are drenched from toe to head in sectarian bias. And no sooner you find even a little deviation from your own viewpoint, you jump to make violent allegations. I have time and again talked to Mohtaram Shamim Siddiqui Sahib about discussing with you the methodology of discussion, for our aim must be to unite the mankind under the banner of Islam rather than even disuniting Muslims on certain controversial issues. I have had heated debates with several on the forum who negate hadith and yet I did not label anyone as Parvezi, and in the past I had debateswith several Ismailis about issues concerning Westernism, and yet I did not label anybody Aghakhani. You are very quick in putting labels, which is exactly contrary to what you claim to profess.
If I were a shiaiite I would not have said this: "Unless Shias change their position categorically regarding the first three caliphs, I do not think any progress can be made on unity front. Shia scholars can also not prove that any of the 11 Imams(12th disappeared) adopted the methods of Azadari that Shias have adopted. I have gone through the history, and I am a great lover of Ahl-bayt, yet I have not found anywhere that any of Immams beat his chest, wore black clothes and brought out Tazia. And none of them sent laanat on "the enemies of ahl-e bayt"."
As far as the question on ahl-e bayt is concerned, even Imam Shafei, a great lover of ahl-e bayt had once said, "If loving ahl-e bayt means being shia, let people go on with their allegation that I am a Shiite." Books of ahadith, including Sahih Bukhari have a large number of ahadith that describe Ali, Fatima, Hassan and Husain RA as Ahle-bayt. No commentator says that they were not ahl-e bayt though many have argued that wives and they – both were ahl-e bayt. Sufisare hardcore Sunnis and yet great lovers of ahl-e bayt. The wives of Prophet had a degree above sahaba in that they were both companions and wives. Ali, Fatima, Hassan and Hussein were Sahaba as well as Ahl-e bayt. (So there is no point in saying that sahaba were superior to them, as they were Sahaba too.) My biggest complaint with Sunnis (of course only some of them) is that in their dislike for Shias they have converted Ali and his descendant Imams into Shias. The truth is that they were neither Sunnis nor Shias but Momineen.
This is my last response to this debate, as I don't want to waste my time in debating sectarian prejudices.
Javed Jamil
From: kaukab siddique <butshikan@msn.com>
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Sent: Fri, July 16, 2010 4:15:36 PM
Subject: Sahaba, r.a. are far superior.RE: Where lies the truth?
Dear Dr. Jamil
asalamu alaikum
You wrote: "There should be a general acceptance that Ahl-e bayt were superior to companions. Furthermore, Ali, Fatima, Hassan and Hussein were both -- ahl-e bayt and companions;"
Do you have any evidence for that. Look at 9:100. Sahaba are far superior to any family members.
Also, according to the Qur'an the wives of the Prophet, pbuh, are ahlul bayt.
No woman after Maryam, alaih salam, is superior to Ayesha, r.a.
Hasan and Hussain, r.a., were little kids when the Prophet, pbuh, passed. How are they companions [Sahaba]?
If you are a Shi'ite, why hide it?
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 17:33:02 -0700
From: doctorforu123@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Where lies the truth?
To: minayet@yahoo.com; nssjobs@att.net; farrukhabidi@yahoo.com
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Dear all
ASAK
I have been extremely pained by continuous mudslinging going on here on the sectarian grounds. I have always avoided to speak on the questions of shia-Sunni differences because I have found that both parties have taken extreme positions and do not have the guts and convictions to resolve their differences for the sake of the unity of Ummah and for the larger cause of fighting the Tyrants and Exploiters of the world. Today I feel compelled to tell the story of both sides in brief as I have had the opportunity to mix with both Sunnis and Shias. Let me first clarify that though I belong family wise to Suuni Hanafi Deobandi school of thought, personally I am not ready to adhere to any of the sects or subsects and I call myself only a Muslim.
Mistakes that both Sunnis and Shias make
In principle both Shia and Sunni scholars will go a long way to argue that Muhammad SAW has the supreme status but in privately at least some of the Sunni and Shia scholars will say things that will make Ali (RA) and Umar RA superior to Muhammad SAW. Sunnis have Umar and Aishah their favourites, the ones whom Shias are most critical of, and Shias have Ali and his family as favourites. Sunnis have exaggerated their positions on their favourites and Sunnis on theirs. I have heard Shia scholars say emphatically things like "Muhammad SAW was born in the house of Abdullah, while Ali RA was born in the house of Allah; Muhammad's baathat waited till Ali RA became a grown up child; that Allah spoke in the voice of Ali on the occasion of Mairaj; and that if Ali RA was not there, Muhammad's ,mission would not have succeeded s easily." I have heard at least some Sunni scholars arguing that Umar RA had even greater intelligence and wisdom at least in certain matters than Muhammad and several verses in Quran were revealed giving preference to Umar's opinion on Muhammad; and that Umar RA knew the exact duration of the commands of Quran and he changed some of them during his Khilafat. I would admit though that this opinion is not very common. Shiason the other hand have been extremely critical of Umar RAand Aishah RA and even forget that Aishahh SAW was Ummul momineen and so deserves a great respect despite questions on some of her actions. Some shia scholars have gone to the extent of proving that Aishah RA was divorced after Prophet's death, as Prophet SAW had given this right to Ali RA. I will again admit that this is not the opinion of majority of Shia scholars. But such statements even by a handful of Sunni and Shia scholars are enough to cause grievances.
Sunni Position that I do not agree with
Majority of Sunni scholars, especially belngig to Deobandi and Saudi schools do not accord the Ahl-e Bayt the status they deserve. Though in books they would sometimes admit the great character and knowledge of all ahl-e bayt Immams(Ali to Askari) but they did never benefit from their rulings in fiqh matters. They would also hide the fact that these ahl-e bayt Imams are the ones whom Shias recognize as their Immas. In recent decades there have been attempts to further minimize the importance of them especially Hadhrat Hussein RA by promoting the opinion that both Yezid and Hussain were simply fighting a political war, which Yezid won. Sunnis have also not been fair in analyzing the events related to succession after Muhammad SAW's death. Some have also tried to prove Ali RA as an incompetent political administrator despite accepting his overall greatness.
Shia positions that I do not agree with
Majority of Shia scholars have taken an extreme stand regarding the first three caliphs. They forget that despite the dubious circumstances in which they were elected, Ali RA, the Imamm of the time according to Shias, reconciled with them and helped them in every possible way. Could he have reconciled with Hypocrites, whom Qur'an describes as the enemies of Islam? Unless Shias change their position categorically regarding the first three caliphs, I do not think any progress can be made on unity front. Shia scholars can also not prove that any of the 11 Imams(12th disappeared) adopted the methods of Azadari that Shias have adopted. I have gone through the history, and I am a great lover of Ahl-bayt, yet I have not found anywhere that any of Immams beat his chest, wore black clothes and brought out Tazia. And none of them sent laanat on "the enemies of ahl-e bayt".
Solution
Solution is very simple if both parties want to unite and no solution if they don't.
- There should be a general acceptance that Ahl-e bayt were superior to companions. Furthermore, Ali, Fatima, Hassan and Hussein were both -- ahl-e bayt and companions;
- Companions were in general Islam loving people; and within their capabilities served Islam;
- That the first three caliphs were legal caliphs;
- That there is absolutely no comparison between Hussain, an ahle-bayt, Sahabi, Imam and great in character and values and Yezid, a simple ruler.
- That both Shias and Sunnis are Muslims; and their deviations are minor that can be bridged.
- That there are bigger purposes for which they all have to unite.
Dr Javed Jamil
From: Mubashir Inayet <minayet@yahoo.com>
To: Nazir Alimohammad <nssjobs@att.net>; Farrukh Abidi <farrukhabidi@yahoo.com>
Cc: zina.khan@yahoo.com; nssjobs@att.net; jaffem@sen.parl.gc.ca; drmaqazi@yahoo.com; hasniessa@yahoo.com; mohanofchenai@gmail.com; drshabbir@bellsouth.net; moderate53@yahoo.com; sharouq@gmail.com; bahramji@gmail.com; doctorforu123@yahoo.com; ank2000pk@yahoo.com; mukhtaralam2000@yahoo.com; mathews_kuruvilla06@yahoo.co.in; atif98@yahoo.com; iftekhar.hai@gmail.com; ummaabroadcasting@rollanet.org; premsadani@hotmail.com; saima29@gmail.com; sohailhashmi@gmail.com; sals420@gmail.com; mikeghouse@aol.com; drmookhi@hotmail.com; tarekfatah@rogers.com; mnaquvi@yahoo.com; azam.sikandar@gmail.com; tirmidhi@hotmail.com; alishaban952@yahoo.com; great72000@yahoo.com; hassan_javid@hotmail.com; aleem.faizee@gmail.com; faruquealamgir@yahoo.com; drshabbir@comcast.net; salsabeel65@yahoo.com; khasif235e@yahoo.com; zakhum@hotmail.com; firasat777@yahoo.com; anwerkhurshid@hotmail.com; yunussidira@yahoo.com; ssmeezan@hotmail.com; ahlam_albahr@yahoo.com; amino66@hotmail.com; k2411871@hotmail.com; pk4318@yahoo.com; april702@cox.net; auzyxkhan@yahoo.co.uk; gul_badshah@yahoo.com; shariq.hamid@yahoo.co.in; ahmadtotonji@yahoo.com; sarwar@muslim-ed-trust.org.uk; mirza.syed@gmail.com; khattak99@yahoo.com; bintwaleed@yahoo.com; gafoor111@yahoo.com; cssharif@yahoo.com; nomani_z@yahoo.com; asra@asranomani.com; yousuftabish@yahoo.com; rafiq786@cbn.net.id; rial982000@yahoo.com; sohail972002@yahoo.co.in; aeisha_786@yahoo.com; bushra_meraj@yahoo.com; cherylin_bas@yahoo.com; doctor_aliasghar@yahoo.com; engrbbkarube@yahoo.com; knowledge4all00@yahoo.com; kristonia7@yahoo.com; hussain@nifty.com; juan.suquillo@gmail.com; fayyaz@reading.org; znanwalla@gmail.com; ahumanb@yahoo.com; akbar@mostmerciful.com; mohanofchenai@googlemail.com; brilliant005@hotmail.com; umah.hai@hotmail.com; farzanaqazi@yahoo.com; yas1rkhan@hotmail.com; tsidd96472@aol.com; webmaster9@mostmerciful.com; africawalla@gmail.com; reform@dawoodi-bohras.com; badshahanizer@gmail.com; ibramsha7@yahoo.com; kaukab siddique <butshikan@msn.com>
Sent: Fri, July 16, 2010 12:15:55 AM
Subject: Where lies the truth?
Dear friends, Salaam
Please click on the following links and please, patiently listen to a few questions to Shias from a Sunni. This is not to prove who is right or wrong but to help explore the truth.
Listen to see if there can be reasons to minimse friction between two major sects of Islam as perhaps the enemies of Islam inserted a lot of fabrications in history to cause these bitter divisions.
The Videos are in 14 parts, and after listening to the first few, listeners can decide if they are worth it or not.
This is not an effort to hurt but a request for all to step back and analyse what happened hundreds of years ago.
Thanks.
Mubashir
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAQbuqLneSk&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DsqAF6pLck&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-L6cWw1DTM&feature=related
Pl Read:
http://nandigramunited-banga.blogspot.com/
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